Comment

Comment by Mick Alexander on November 4, 2017 at 2:57pm

Fair enough Moises.

God bless you my friend,

Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on November 4, 2017 at 2:45pm

I only recommend you to study the Bible in its whole context, not by pieces to support what you want to find in it (eisegesis). The Bible does not contradict itself and when something we believe contradicts other Scriptures I learn to go to the book, not to my denomination.

But is OK Mick, I know we are to see each other in heaven, and we are going to see things in a complete way.

Many blessings.

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on November 4, 2017 at 2:41pm

Hi Mick,

If you think I am wrong it is OK with me, I am convinced I am not but I am not to keep discussing in a non ending path.

God bless you brother.

Comment by Mick Alexander on November 3, 2017 at 9:36pm

Hello Moses,

You are badly misinterpreting the verses. You said, "... it will mean that anyone who is not a branch of the Vine is going to be cut and burned". How can someone who is not already in the Vine be cut out? A branch, a Christian, has to be first in the Vine, saved, before it can be cut out.

Verse 2 also says that God will cut out every branch, every Christian, who does not bear fruit. A branch has to be in the Vine to bear fruit. If the branch, a Christian, does not bear fruit it will be cut out and burned.

There is no question that the branches are Christian as Jesus is directly addressing the 11 Apostles. He said, "You are the branches..." (v.5). The 11 Apostles were all saved men.

The unsaved don't get a mention in this parable. Only branches, only Christians.

God bless,
Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on November 3, 2017 at 9:08pm

Mick,

If we are to measure our everlasting salvation in facts like if we sin, then one lose salvation, and take it back again when repent, then no one can be saved, and only those who ask forgiveness, and sin not before going to the Father, or at the Second coming of Christ are the only to be saved, I need to say that then Jesus atonement was incomplete. 

Or, I can rely completely in Christ that our sins were carried by Him at the cross, and after accepting Christ, because I am a child of God when I do wrong (sin) He forgive me as a son, not as an unbeliever. 

We do need to ask forgiveness when we sin, as John say in his first letter, but God forgive us not by our merits but by Christ merits.

God bless,

Moises

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on November 3, 2017 at 8:50pm

Hello Mick,

Well, if I only read that verse it will mean that anyone who is not a branch of the Vine is going to be cut and burned. 

But, again, doing a little exercise of hermeneutics here we see that it also said in verse 2 

Joh 15:2 ASV
(2)  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

Then, you have here a comparison in the same chapter, those who bear fruits (those really saved) are to be pruned in order to bear more fruit and those who are not a real branch of the Vine are to be cast out to be burned. All this make sense when we see it in the light of Matthew 13 where from all those who hear the seed only grows in some. There also we can see those who thought they were really saved but they were not. Also we see there those who seem to be a genuine branch but actually they were fake. At the end of times they are going to be cast out but the real ones will be with God forever.

God bless,

Moises

Comment by Mick Alexander on November 3, 2017 at 3:52pm

Hello Moises,

But what does it mean that a branch can be cut out of the Vine and burned? (In the previous verse, Jesus told the Apostles that they were the branches).

God bless,

Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on November 3, 2017 at 3:47pm

Hi Mick,

Doing a quick hermeneutic exercise here the first thing I noticed is that Jesus is talking about one giving his life for a friend. Then Jesus told them that if they follow His commands they are His friends. Then Jesus reaffirm them that to Him they are no longer servants but friends (He himself talked to them as those abide with Him forever).

Then, the classical verse about who's the One making the election of the saved ones, who is Jesus Himself, by His atonement. Then the bearing of fruit is possible when we abide in Him, He elected us to be fruit bearers.

And finally the promise that our prayers according to His will are going to be answered.

Something I learned to do is not to make a doctrine out of a verse, if we are serious students (I know you are) of the Scriptures we should search the entire counsel of the Bible in regards to doctrines and any teaching. Also, when I find apparent discrepancies I need to go and search more because most of the time is that I am doing eisegesis instead of exegesis with the Bible.

Mick, I do not believe the OSAS teaching, mostly in regards that one can be saved and do whatever he or she wants, I think that's heresy.

See you around brother. God bless.

Comment by Mick Alexander on November 3, 2017 at 2:57pm

Hello Moises,

I too hold no grudge Moises. I just believe that OSAS is a most heinous doctrine and that is why I pursue the matter.

Before finishing up, how do you explain John 15:6 bearing in mind that -
1) It is third class conditional.
2) Jesus is speaking directly to the Apostles?

God bless,
Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on November 3, 2017 at 9:12am

Brother Mick,

As I mentioned before, this issue about losing or not salvation is an old one which started when Jacobus Arminius came with the idea that a true believer can lost the everlasting salvation given by God through Christ. After that the controversy started more open and has been like that since then. 

I think this is a minor doctrinal difference among the church, and has nothing to do with our salvation but with our stand before God about what He said about His free gift in Jesus Christ. I do not believe the cliché "One Saved Always Saved" in the sense it is used by many false teachers but I do believe that ab true believer never lose his salvation because it was nothing we acquire by our own merits. The merits for our salvation are in Christ alone, His life and sacrifice were enough to satisfy God's wrath towards sin.

When we become children of God that judicial verdict of guilt was abolished forever in Christ, and we enter in a restored relationship with God as our Father, then when we sin we come asking for forgiveness not as unbelievers but as believers who failed the Father, and the forgiveness received is from our Father, not from someone we do not know.

I know this principles are difficult to accept given our own broken being where we buy everything we owe but it is so refreshing and liberating to know that we are forever redeem, adopted, accepted by God, declare righteous because of Christ.

God bless you brother. From my side I love you and I hope we can share more in the future. Because we are not to solve this issue I leave it here.

Many blessings.

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