Comment

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on October 30, 2017 at 8:06pm

Thanks Mick,

Then, is it your position we are the ones who have the key for our eternal salvation?

In regards to the need of the Holy Spirit to help us in our way as Christians I see it in the commends Jesus gave the apostles before He ascended to Heaven. The command in Acts chapter 1 was: But you will receive [power when the Holy Spirit has come to you, and you will be my witness in Jerusalen..........

It is clear to me that after Jesus spent forty days after He resurrected with His disciples / apostles giving instructions about what they were to face Jesus Himself told them to wait for the filling of the Spirit in order to be capable to face everything coming their way after they opened the time of grace for human kind. It did not say go and do according to your strength but by the Holy Ghost.

If I follow Christ by my own strength I am going to fail but if I follow Him by the strength of the Spirit then I have the gift of God dwelling in me and helping me in my way. I do not see how He will take me His eternal salvation because I did not perform, the law required performance but grace only demands obedience, repentance, faith, and the constant filling of the Holy Spirit to help me understand the Scriptures. Nothing from my side and all because Jesus did perform according to God's demands, and only because of Him, and His sacrifice is that I am saved.

God bless you brother.

Comment by Mick Alexander on October 30, 2017 at 3:59pm

Hello Moises,

Regarding John 10, I can't see how it implies that true believers are going to continue to listen and follow through the power of the Spirit. In John 10:27, Jesus simply said that His sheep continue to listen and follow and will never perish. To me, if they don't continue then they will perish as He said in Luke 13:3 - "(continue to repent) or perish".

If a Christian fails to continue in repentance, Heb. 10:26-27 says he will face God's fiery wrath: Heb 10:26-27 - "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Greek Present Tense is used abundantly in regards to salvation telling us that we must continue in our faith or perish. I have found that verb tenses are often completely ignored because of their clear meaning such as John 3:16 - "whoever (continues) to believe in Him shall not perish". To me, it is painfully obvious that if we don't continue to believe in Jesus then we will perish.

God bless you Moises,
Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on October 30, 2017 at 7:15am

Hello Mick,

I agree with you about 1 John 2. The case is they said they were part of the flock, they were counted as part of the flock but, they never were part of it. May be because they never understood the meaning of grace to be saved, but they seem to believe they were part of the church. The fact that John mention they were among us, but they were never imply that theory.

In the case of John 10, using that context is correct but after He told them to listen, to follow, it is also implied that true believers are going to do that by the power of the Spirit, and by immersing themselves in the Scriptures. Then, the fact some does not listen, does not follow imply to me they were part of those mentioned by John,

As I mentioned before this is a debate for centuries in the church, and we are not to solve it here. If one believe he /she can lost the eternal salvation given because of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, with all respect, it is like telling Jesus that the same as the Law, His sacrifice wasn't enough to make one save and we still need to perform, to do works in order to obtain the Divine grace by our means and not by the means of our Almighty God.

God bless you brother.

Comment by Mick Alexander on October 26, 2017 at 10:59pm

Hello Moises,

Regarding 1 John 2, if these people were never saved then they can't be used in a salvation loss debate as they never had salvation to lose in the first place. (I won't go into it now but the verbs in that verse are Perfect Tense and cast a different light on it than what appears on the face of things).

To understand John 10:29, we need to be aware that, in verse 27, both "listen" and "follow" are also present tense meaning that the sheep need to continue to listen and continue to follow Jesus in order that no one can pluck them from His hand. If a sheep strays from listening and following then he will lose the Lord's protection and become lost.

The word "believe" in John 3:16 is also present tense and this means that we must continue to believe in order to inherit eternal life.

In Mark 1:15, both "repent" and "believe" are Present Active Imperatives meaning the Jesus commands us to continue in repentance and belief otherwise we will not inherit the kingdom.

In Luke 13:3, Jesus said to repent continuously otherwise we will perish.

John 15:6 sums it up in telling us that we need to remain, continue in, Jesus otherwise we will be burned like a branch cut from the Vine.

The use of present tense in these examples make it abundantly clear, to me, that salvation can be lost if we fail to continue in the Lord. There are many other passages attesting to this.

All the Lord requires of us is to confess and repent of our sins whenever the Holy Spirit convicts us ... John 16:8, 1 John 1:9.

God bless Moises,
Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on October 26, 2017 at 10:19pm

Mick,

1 John 2 say that those who left the flock were never part of it meaning they were never saved. The point here is what we believe about the literal meaning of these verses and many others we have in the Bible.

God bless.

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on October 26, 2017 at 10:17pm

Thanks Mick.

Something should be wrong here. If we believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that it did not contradict itself then what are we to do with verses like John 10:29, and 1 John 2? In the first one if we see the context Jesus was telling the religious people that they are not from His flock, because His sheep listen and obey His words, and at the end He said, no one can pluck them from my hands. It is a present tense which signifies it is forever no one can take them from me. This issue of losing or not salvation have been a great debate for many centuries.

Comment by Mick Alexander on October 24, 2017 at 10:44pm

Amen Moises, the Spirit always works with us to encourage repentance but the choice is still ours. Jesus gives us that choice in Luke 13:3 where He said that unless we repent we will perish. I believe the Bible is full of warnings of salvation loss, like John 15:6.

God bless,

Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on October 24, 2017 at 7:54pm

Thanks Mick. I agree with you. I believe that a true Christian will always repent after doing sin or something wrong. I see it as the work of the Spirit within us as we grow more in the image of Christ.

Blessings,

Moises

Comment by Mick Alexander on October 24, 2017 at 3:16pm

Hello Moises,

Thanks for your comment.

Like you, I also believe that we must repent to be forgiven whenever we sin but the point is that we are not forgiven until we confess our sins as 1 John 1:9 says. If we are not forgiven then we face death as the wages of sin is death.

In Mark 1:15, both "repent" and "believe" are Present Active Imperatives meaning that Jesus commands us to continually repent and continually believe and Luke 13:3 says that we must "repent or perish". If we, as Christians, fail to obey Jesus' commands then we will perish like the unbelievers.

Some consider ongoing repentance to be working for salvation but that cannot be true as it is a direct command from Jesus. Obedience to Jesus' commands should never be considered as working for salvation.

God bless,
Mick

Comment by Pastor Moises Figueroa, DBS on October 24, 2017 at 9:54am

I see your point but it is a fine line from what you said and the gospel of works, in other words, believing we are save by doing good works. We are not save by works but by grace.

After we accept Christ as our Savior we still sin but then we do not come anymore before the father as unbelievers but as children and as so we are forgiven when we repent but it has nothing to do with our eternal salvation.

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